For anyone who wants to become a fan, feel free. At some point we
might be able to use this for announcements and such.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/PHP-FPM/181091647793

Email me off the list for any questions or ideas etc.

Michael Shadle wrote:
> For anyone who wants to become a fan, feel free. At some point we
> might be able to use this for announcements and such.
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/PHP-FPM/181091647793
>
> Email me off the list for any questions or ideas etc.

What? Please stop doing that.

There are 3 different sources (php-fpm.org, launchpad and github) that
used to have different content in how to get php-fpm working or even
download it.

I'm glad I'm following the project for more than a year now. If I wanted
to start a few months ago I would have discarded it because of the mess
being created.

There's the official website and/or the mailing list for announcements.

What else, a flickr page? I don't want to "Sign up for Facebook to
connect with PHP-FPM." and I think many of us agree with that.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Juan Fco. Giordana
<juangiordana@gmail.com> wrote:
> What? Please stop doing that.
>
> What else, a flickr page? I don't want to "Sign up for Facebook to connect
> with PHP-FPM." and I think many of us agree with that.
>

Second that.

На събота 21 ноември 2009 17:57:50 Gordon Pettey написа:
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Juan Fco. Giordana
>
> <juangiordana@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What? Please stop doing that.
> >
> > What else, a flickr page? I don't want to "Sign up for Facebook to
> > connect with PHP-FPM." and I think many of us agree with that.
>
> Second that.
>

+1

I'm sorry, but it is a community project and it's just an additional
way for exposure. Do you bitch that mysql php or nginx have Facebook
pages? Does it really hurt you to add it?

If you are all so passionate about the project please contribute. Code
money test cases whatever. I am hitting up anyone I meet with c skills
to help contribute to finally finish things like adaptive process
spawning for example.

I understand the github vs lauchpad vs official website. I've asked
dreamcat to help me dump all the info into the official site and we
would use launchpad for the code and ticketing.

It's a bit disappointing that there are so many users out there but
nobody is willing to help but only comment negatively when I am just
trying to increase exposure on the project. I am even possibly going
to pay out of my own pocket (since only a couple folks even
contributed) to get some wishlist items done if nobody will step up.

Thank god for someone like dreamcat who came out of the woodwork and
is at least trying.

The Facebook page is just a page to add. Might make random
announcements but it is not there to replace anything else.

When I inherited management of this project from Andrei I figured the
community was large enough and the idea behind it is great. However
it's comments like this which make me wonder why I am even trying when
nobody seems grateful anyone is even trying to keep it alive and only
reports bugs or asks when something will be done.

Take your negativity and turn it into something positive, please. The
wiki for the most part is publically editable. Hate having info on
github too? Figure out a nice way to present it on the wiki and just
run with it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2009, at 3:51 AM, "Juan Fco. Giordana" <juangiordana@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Michael Shadle wrote:
>> For anyone who wants to become a fan, feel free. At some point we
>> might be able to use this for announcements and such.
>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/PHP-FPM/181091647793
>> Email me off the list for any questions or ideas etc.
>
> What? Please stop doing that.
>
> There are 3 different sources (php-fpm.org, launchpad and github)
> that used to have different content in how to get php-fpm working or
> even download it.
>
> I'm glad I'm following the project for more than a year now. If I
> wanted to start a few months ago I would have discarded it because
> of the mess being created.
>
> There's the official website and/or the mailing list for
> announcements.
>
> What else, a flickr page? I don't want to "Sign up for Facebook to
> connect with PHP-FPM." and I think many of us agree with that.

Mike,

I said this to you privately and now I'll say it publicly. You claim that your clients who are using php-fpm include more than one Fortune 50 company. Where's their money? It seems they have deeper pockets than any of us small webmasters and developers would. Why would I want to contribute money when they haven't?

This project has been extremely haphazard since Andrei left. Adding another place to look for information when there are already several with conflicting documentation seems a waste of effort. What you're hearing is a reflection of that frustration. I understand that you have your own frustrations and issues, but frankly there is little incentive for anyone to want to contribute time, effort, or money into a project which has no clear direction. If I spend an hour editing the wiki only to find the links are dead the next day I'll be pretty pissed. That, however, is a real possibility given recent events.

My opinion is that your time would be better spent centralizing the information, not the opposite. Of course that's just an opinion and you know what they say about them.

Please take this in the constructive vein in which it is intended. I would guess that the others who have already spoken up feel pretty much the same as I do.

Jim

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Shadle <mike503@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:19:17
To: highload-php-en@googlegroups.com<highload-php-en@googlegroups.com>
Cc: highload-php-en@googlegroups.com<highload-php-en@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: PHP-FPM page created on Facebook - for anyone who is interested

I'm sorry, but it is a community project and it's just an additional
way for exposure. Do you bitch that mysql php or nginx have Facebook
pages? Does it really hurt you to add it?

If you are all so passionate about the project please contribute. Code
money test cases whatever. I am hitting up anyone I meet with c skills
to help contribute to finally finish things like adaptive process
spawning for example.

I understand the github vs lauchpad vs official website. I've asked
dreamcat to help me dump all the info into the official site and we
would use launchpad for the code and ticketing.

It's a bit disappointing that there are so many users out there but
nobody is willing to help but only comment negatively when I am just
trying to increase exposure on the project. I am even possibly going
to pay out of my own pocket (since only a couple folks even
contributed) to get some wishlist items done if nobody will step up.

Thank god for someone like dreamcat who came out of the woodwork and
is at least trying.

The Facebook page is just a page to add. Might make random
announcements but it is not there to replace anything else.

When I inherited management of this project from Andrei I figured the
community was large enough and the idea behind it is great. However
it's comments like this which make me wonder why I am even trying when
nobody seems grateful anyone is even trying to keep it alive and only
reports bugs or asks when something will be done.

Take your negativity and turn it into something positive, please. The
wiki for the most part is publically editable. Hate having info on
github too? Figure out a nice way to present it on the wiki and just
run with it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2009, at 3:51 AM, "Juan Fco. Giordana" <juangiordana@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Michael Shadle wrote:
>> For anyone who wants to become a fan, feel free. At some point we
>> might be able to use this for announcements and such.
>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/PHP-FPM/181091647793
>> Email me off the list for any questions or ideas etc.
>
> What? Please stop doing that.
>
> There are 3 different sources (php-fpm.org, launchpad and github)
> that used to have different content in how to get php-fpm working or
> even download it.
>
> I'm glad I'm following the project for more than a year now. If I
> wanted to start a few months ago I would have discarded it because
> of the mess being created.
>
> There's the official website and/or the mailing list for
> announcements.
>
> What else, a flickr page? I don't want to "Sign up for Facebook to
> connect with PHP-FPM." and I think many of us agree with that.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:44 PM, <jim@ohlste.in> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I said this to you privately and now I'll say it publicly. You claim that your clients who are using php-fpm include more than one Fortune 50 company. Where's their money? It seems they have deeper pockets than any of us small webmasters and developers would. Why would I want to contribute money when they haven't?


> This project has been extremely haphazard since Andrei left. Adding another place to look for information when there are already several with conflicting documentation seems a waste of effort. What you're hearing is a reflection of that frustration. I understand that you have your own frustrations and issues, but frankly there is little incentive for anyone to want to contribute time, effort, or money into a project which has no clear direction. If I spend an hour editing the wiki only to find the links are dead the next day I'll be pretty pissed. That, however, is a real possibility given recent events.
>
> My opinion is that your time would be better spent centralizing the information, not the opposite. Of course that's just an opinion and you know what they say about them.
>
> Please take this in the constructive vein in which it is intended. I would guess that the others who have already spoken up feel pretty much the same as I do.


The fortune 50 company happens to be one I work for, and as such I
cannot accept a donation from it without it being a conflict of
interest now. However I am sure it is not the only one. If we would
have been able to donate before I wound up inheriting it (which I
didn't think about ahead of time) then it would have gone to Andrei,
who definitely deserves credit and past dues for creating the project
for sure. However, being in a large company things move slowly and
there's a lot of political stuff behind donations to projects that
don't really have any company behind it (it's not like it's backed by
a non-profit) - however doesn't sourceforge accept donations on behalf
of projects? I guess it's something to look into.

I have been trying to centralize the information. Launchpad had some
basic info just to get the people interested in the standalone
project. That came out of left field - Andrei had told me he was too
busy to work but as a parting present he started the new way of doing
things which since then only dreamcat has helped clean up and
repackage.

dreamcat also put all the docs up on github himself; I have asked him
to put it on php-fpm.org, I think actually the ball is in my court to
install a couple mediawiki plugins so that his documentation can be
put into mediawiki but also be repurposed inside of the distribution
without having to convert back and forth between wiki markup.

That being said, the Facebook page was purely just to get more
exposure out there. As I said it might have an announcement or two but
it would not be the only source, it might just be an additional
announcement that was also on the mailing list, perhaps a major
breakthrough or feature that should be announced all over. It is in no
way trying to replace -anything- and I am definitely feeling people's
pain as I myself don't even run the new version yet, I'm still using
php 5.2.11 w/ the patch.

The source code is out there on launchpad and there is a Wishlist on
the wiki; there are items that could be done in the meantime,
including anyone who wants to update the docs in the wiki.

The whole "why would I contribute if they don't" is moot. It's an open
source project. How many companies out there use MySQL, PHP, etc.
without ever contributing a dime? It's all about community and the
contributions are for those people who can't contribute code. I cannot
contribute code myself, so I try to contribute in any other way I can,
be it gaining exposure, hounding anyone who knows C at open source
conferences in the area (just went to one last weekend and put PHP-FPM
up on the job board as in "Know C? Want to help PHP scale? Email me" -
no emails. Plenty of C programmers and PHP users too. Even a couple
people who have written PECL modules were there.

I haven't contributed myself per-se, because I wind up handling all
the funds. So I will take any contributions I get from others and put
in my own money too, if it comes to that. Ideally it wouldn't but at
this point I'm getting desperate to get some more code into the
project. With the adaptive process spawning piece (and actually had a
discussion on IRC last night with someone about a possible different
approach) I think PHP-FPM will gain even more ground as it will be an
answer to "well Lighttpd [1.4.x] supports it..." even though they're
deprecating and removing it in the future anyway :)

If -anyone- wants to contribute documentation, wiki editing, code,
money, or whatever the door is -always- open. Criticism isn't viewed
very well in my eyes as nobody seems to want to take the time to help,
but only make excuses or complain. I don't give a crap if a big
company is using the product. Big companies use nginx but I still fund
the development out of my own pocket of nginx modules and then release
them to the public with a BSD license so people can do whatever they
want (well, one is already out there and I contributed to enhance it,
the other I am waiting for the coder to finish it up in a public state
and then it will be out in the world)

People -will- use the one nginx module inside of their company
intranets. Do I care? No. I looked at it from my own perspective and I
actually won't even be using it for my own personal use but I will be
using it for the servers I administer inside of my own company. Did I
ask my company to pay for it? No. Why? Probably an annoying political
battle and the cost was not high enough honestly to justify that. So I
paid for it out of pocket to a) benefit the community and b) make some
cool functionality available to websites inside of my own company's
intranet.

Remember, the Facebook page was not to further spread information out.
Only to help build a bit more exposure for anyone who wanted to add it
to their Facebook profile and perhaps find new people to be interested
in it.

I will try my best in the next couple days to figure out what dreamcat
needed to get the documentation into the wiki, and remove the github
information, as well as ensure launchpad has no information and only
has bugs/code. If there are website design ideas on how to clarify
this, once again the door is -always- open. This is a COMMUNITY
project, I am simply trying to keep it afloat as best I can. When the
community members themselves start splitting up the documentation and
such, I try to reign it in, I can only do so much though.

На събота 21 ноември 2009 23:39:35 Michael Shadle написа:
> I will try my best in the next couple days to figure out what dreamcat
> needed to get the documentation into the wiki, and remove the github
> information, as well as ensure launchpad has no information and only
> has bugs/code. If there are website design ideas on how to clarify
> this, once again the door is -always- open. This is a COMMUNITY
> project, I am simply trying to keep it afloat as best I can. When the
> community members themselves start splitting up the documentation and
> such, I try to reign it in, I can only do so much though.

Since in your eyes it's a community project, you should be able to accept
criticism from the community :) it is as simple as that.

As was said before, you'd better spend your time centralizing the project,
that means:

*) one website pointing to:
*) releases and betas
*) docs
*) goals of the project
*) bugtacker
*) how to contribute

This is all the community (people that use php-fpm) needs.

What the Project needs is a different story, it is coders :) this, however, is
a damn complicated thing, as you have found out. Demanding contributions from
people reading/posting to this mail list (group, whatever) is not the right
way to get it moving.

That said, I do not disrespect you and/or your efforts, moreover I do
appreciate them. You, however, should respect criticism.

Momchil

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since in your eyes it's a community project, you should be able to accept
> criticism from the community :) it is as simple as that.

Only if it is constructive and people are willing to help. Remember I
volunteered to try to keep the project alive. Without Andrei around it
was doomed to completely fizzle out.

> As was said before, you'd better spend your time centralizing the project,
> that means:

> *) one website pointing to:
>        *) releases and betas
>        *) docs
>        *) goals of the project
>        *) bugtacker
>        *) how to contribute

That being said, is it acceptable to say this? I am open to
suggestions. Would people rather have a self-hosted change control
system like Subversion using Redmine for bug tracking and the Wiki
(like lighttpd does it?) - is splitting code/bugs into launchpad
acceptable? It has become the standard for many open source projects
and it also allows for offline development and advanced
branching/merging capabilities for a distributed project. However,
maybe I overestimated the amount of possible participation.

*) one website pointing to: - this is php-fpm.org as it always has
been, it just needs some updates

*) releases and betas - the code is stored in launchpad. if this is
not acceptable (which launchpad provides nice things like translations
for any gettext strings in the code, random benefits like that
including bug tracking)

*) docs - the php-fpm.org/wiki/main website

*) goals of the project - the php-fpm.org/wiki/main website

*) bugtacker - again, launchpad

*) how to contribute - the php-fpm/wiki/main website

That is how I see it currently working, assuming we re-sync the docs
and everything back to php-fpm.org.

However again, open to any suggestions, products, whatever.

> What the Project needs is a different story, it is coders :) this, however, is
> a damn complicated thing, as you have found out. Demanding contributions from
> people reading/posting to this mail list (group, whatever) is not the right
> way to get it moving.

I'm not demanding. I'm saying if you want to help, there's various
ways - money, code, documentation, testing, spreading the word. Just
saying "hey it doesn't work" or "hey the websites suck" isn't very
productive.

There are some changes like per-pool php.ini overrides, that I think
-I- might even be able to hack in, and I don't even code C. There's
various levels of code or things that could be worked on.
Contributions or people hiring coders themselves to build specific
features in is always welcome. Basically anything to keep the project
afloat, relevant, etc.

> That said, I do not disrespect you and/or your efforts, moreover I do
> appreciate them. You, however, should respect criticism.

I respect it but only if people are willing to help. Being an
"Armchair Quarterback" of sorts to me is useless and pollutes the list
and makes new people to the project less apt to attempt it if the
community is giving negative feedback. Yes, it's a bit confusing right
now, but also the stuff still works - I use the patch version all over
the place. So at least that is going for us. :)

На неделя 22 ноември 2009 01:29:50 Michael Shadle написа:
> That being said, is it acceptable to say this? I am open to
> suggestions. Would people rather have a self-hosted change control
> system like Subversion using Redmine for bug tracking and the Wiki
> (like lighttpd does it?) - is splitting code/bugs into launchpad
> acceptable? It has become the standard for many open source projects
> and it also allows for offline development and advanced
> branching/merging capabilities for a distributed project. However,
> maybe I overestimated the amount of possible participation.

If the website lists stable versions and where to get them from, everything
else matters only for coders (currently dreamcat4). It's up to their religion
what they use for devevelopment.

> *) one website pointing to: - this is php-fpm.org as it always has
> been, it just needs some updates
>
> *) releases and betas - the code is stored in launchpad. if this is
> not acceptable (which launchpad provides nice things like translations
> for any gettext strings in the code, random benefits like that
> including bug tracking)

It doesn't matter where the code is as soon as the website points to it and
says what is beta and what is stable :) It is though a good idea to put
releases on a place, where people can find them after some time (meaning URLs
of already released stuff should not change, else you break freebsd ports,
gentoo portage and all other source based "package" systems). This does not
mean that naming conventions and URLs cannot change between releases,
important is not to change the URL of something after it has been released.

> *) goals of the project - the php-fpm.org/wiki/main website

This one is currently missing, whislists are something different from goals.
Moreover there are 2 links for Wishlists on the wiki (one site on the wiki
itself and one on launchpad).

So now about goals: I am using php-fpm for a website, but I don't know what
the goals of the project are, I do know what stays on the wishlists, but
that's irrelevant for me if there is nobody with a desire to code it.
Therefore goals, for me, are a list of things to expect in some order, like:
implement feature X, fix feature Y, write docs, fix bugs 1, 2, 3 .......

The goals of the project should be defined by the people, working on the code
(currently dreamcat4), and should list what these people would like to
implement, so that the users (me and everybody who cares) know what to expect
in the future releases.

> That is how I see it currently working, assuming we re-sync the docs
> and everything back to php-fpm.org.

This what this thread is all about, having everything in one place :)

> > What the Project needs is a different story, it is coders :) this,
> > however, is a damn complicated thing, as you have found out. Demanding
> > contributions from people reading/posting to this mail list (group,
> > whatever) is not the right way to get it moving.
>
> I'm not demanding. I'm saying if you want to help, there's various
> ways - money, code, documentation, testing, spreading the word. Just
> saying "hey it doesn't work" or "hey the websites suck" isn't very
> productive.

Nobody mentioned anything about something that is not working, neither that
some website sucks :) I hope you realize, that creating yet another place for
announcements (facebook), means: yet another place to be kept in sync. It's
kind of obligation, since if you don't keep all of these sites in sync, you
will confuse potential and current users.

These are my proposals/recommendations. Have a good day/night.

Momchil

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the website lists stable versions and where to get them from, everything
> else matters only for coders (currently dreamcat4). It's up to their religion
> what they use for devevelopment.

Well ideally I want developers to be able to just join in the fun as
easy as possible too. So anyone's ideas are fair game there.

Do you have a specific website you think does this particularly well?

> It doesn't matter where the code is as soon as the website points to it and
> says what is beta and what is stable :) It is though a good idea to put
> releases on a place, where people can find them after some time (meaning URLs
> of already released stuff should not change, else you break freebsd ports,
> gentoo portage and all other source based "package" systems). This does not
> mean that naming conventions and URLs cannot change between releases,
> important is not to change the URL of something after it has been released.

Agreed. For both historical and compatibility I have no objection to
ensuring that all versions stay online and available.

> This one is currently missing, whislists are something different from goals.
> Moreover there are 2 links for Wishlists on the wiki (one site on the wiki
> itself and one on launchpad).

This is true. I wanted to move the wishlist items into launchpad's
equivalents which are called "Blueprints" - haven't got there yet
though. Wanted to flush them out a little bit more before dumping stub
"feature requests" in.

> So now about goals: I am using php-fpm for a website, but I don't know what
> the goals of the project are, I do know what stays on the wishlists, but
> that's irrelevant for me if there is nobody with a desire to code it.
> Therefore goals, for me, are a list of things to expect in some order, like:
> implement feature X, fix feature Y, write docs, fix bugs 1, 2, 3 .......

Well, prioritization and such is hard since there are no resources. I
can't really say that feature X gets done first, if I can't find a
coder proficient enough to do X, but perhaps they can do Y... so that
one may be hard to really nail down.

> The goals of the project should be defined by the people, working on the code
> (currently dreamcat4), and should list what these people would like to
> implement, so that the users (me and everybody who cares) know what to expect
> in the future releases.

That's where LP helps - they can get classified into milestones.

> Nobody mentioned anything about something that is not working, neither that
> some website sucks :) I hope you realize, that creating yet another place for
> announcements (facebook), means: yet another place to be kept in sync. It's
> kind of obligation, since if you don't keep all of these sites in sync, you
> will confuse potential and current users.

Facebook isn't necessarily another place I will sync anything to. In
fact, it may be just an idle page. However, people will be able to
find it on other people's profiles and then with a short writeup and
the website link discover the project.

Before I knew about PHP-FPM I was wandering around the net looking for
something. Then I decided I would try making my own blueprints/idea -
after posting it multiple places someone informed me of PHP-FPM, which
addresses basically all my needs besides the adaptive process
management (however it has worked great anyway)

So exposure is key. Finding the right people who use it could lead to
more contributions of any kind. That's not a bad thing. So if anyone
has a Facebook account I'd say add it; I might announce something
major on there after the website and official channels get it, but
otherwise it's just a placeholder to help grab exposure for the
project. Nothing really more.

На неделя 22 ноември 2009 05:33:14 Michael Shadle написа:
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the website lists stable versions and where to get them from,
> > everything else matters only for coders (currently dreamcat4). It's up to
> > their religion what they use for devevelopment.
>
> Well ideally I want developers to be able to just join in the fun as
> easy as possible too. So anyone's ideas are fair game there.
>
> Do you have a specific website you think does this particularly well?

No, I don't.

> > It doesn't matter where the code is as soon as the website points to it
> > and says what is beta and what is stable :) It is though a good idea to
> > put releases on a place, where people can find them after some time
> > (meaning URLs of already released stuff should not change, else you break
> > freebsd ports, gentoo portage and all other source based "package"
> > systems). This does not mean that naming conventions and URLs cannot
> > change between releases, important is not to change the URL of something
> > after it has been released.
>
> Agreed. For both historical and compatibility I have no objection to
> ensuring that all versions stay online and available.

It's not about history :) it's about being adopted in most systems. You will
never get php-fpm in some sort of port or package system if sources are not
available under constant URLs, so that packages can be build. You cannot
expect port/package maintainers to track URL changes :) they have other stuff
to do. Making it easier to adopt in most systems is the first step for getting
more audience. Advertising and spreading the word comes next.

> Well, prioritization and such is hard since there are no resources. I
> can't really say that feature X gets done first, if I can't find a
> coder proficient enough to do X, but perhaps they can do Y... so that
> one may be hard to really nail down.
>

This is true, but what you can do is a list of things that need to be done and
state that contributions will go for that stuff unless otherwise stated. You
have to make it easier for potential money contributors:

*) where and how can I send my money (paypal account, bank account, etc.)?
*) I want to know what my money goes for, where can I find it out?
*) I might want to give money for a certain feature, how do I do it?

These are all questions that you are going to ask yourself when contributing
with money to some project, however, there is nothing to be found on the
website, that answers these simple questions. Take a look at this website [1]
for example.

> Facebook isn't necessarily another place I will sync anything to. In
> fact, it may be just an idle page. However, people will be able to
> find it on other people's profiles and then with a short writeup and
> the website link discover the project.

....

> So exposure is key. Finding the right people who use it could lead to
> more contributions of any kind. That's not a bad thing. So if anyone
> has a Facebook account I'd say add it; I might announce something
> major on there after the website and official channels get it, but
> otherwise it's just a placeholder to help grab exposure for the
> project. Nothing really more.

You are contradicting yourself here, since announcements need to be
consistent. What you announce on the website, needs to be announced on
facebook and the other way around (that includes the mailing list and all
other announcement sites).

1: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/

Momchil

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com> wrote:

> available under constant URLs, so that packages can be build. You cannot
> expect port/package maintainers to track URL changes :) they have other stuff
> to do. Making it easier to adopt in most systems is the first step for getting
> more audience. Advertising and spreading the word comes next.

I consider it two-fold: one, for any package maintainers like freebsd
ports. Two, for people who require a specific version and need to
manually grab it.

> This is true, but what you can do is a list of things that need to be done and
> state that contributions will go for that stuff unless otherwise stated. You
> have to make it easier for potential money contributors:
>
>  *) where and how can I send my money (paypal account, bank account, etc.)?

I thought I had listed the Paypal address as well, but perhaps I
didn't. Maybe it was just in various emails. The new site I will have
a "How to Contribute" page - where it will list sub-items such as
Development, Documentation, Monetary Contribution, etc. Each section
will have information in it that hopefully will be clear and concise.

>  *) I want to know what my money goes for, where can I find it out?

I take care of hosting, so that cost is irrelevant. it will
essentially go towards generating interest or hiring a
developer/getting them interested in the project by bringing them on
board for a specific feature and hopefully them sticking around after
that. So it's 100% towards development. I don't need hosting or
advertising. I'm also up for any ideas for that too, if I am missing
any.

>  *) I might want to give money for a certain feature, how do I do it?

I believe at one point I said if people want to contribute "to a
specific wishlist item" to let me know, otherwise any contributions
will go towards the priorities I think make sense. I will include that
in the "monetary donations" portion on the "How to Contribute" page.

Also note that if anyone wants to fund anything they can also do it
directly and not involve me, just be sure to announce it ahead of time
so there is no duplicate work being done (in case it is being worked
on silently in the background or something by someone else for
instance)

> These are all questions that you are going to ask yourself when contributing
> with money to some project, however, there is nothing to be found on the
> website, that answers these simple questions. Take a look at this website [1]
> for example.

I've been talking to dreamcat4 and I'm probably going to create
http://legacy.php-fpm.org or something for the legacy content that is
mainly related to the old patch version, and the new website will be
up to date with the current generation.

> You are contradicting yourself here, since announcements need to be
> consistent. What you announce on the website, needs to be announced on
> facebook and the other way around (that includes the mailing list and all
> other announcement sites).

I don't believe I am contradicting myself as I have stated Facebook
-may- receive some major announcements but is not a true source of any
information. It's more of a lead generator than anything else. People
will see it on other people's accounts or from search and wonder what
it is and it will lead them to the PHP-FPM website.

I may from time to time if it is important enough throw some
announcements in there that coincide with website and/or mailing list
announcements but I would not consider it the official place of record
for anything.

I do appreciate all this discussion and I do want this to be a clean,
easy to use website with relevant up to date information, links,
project info and everything anyone needs from an end-user to a
developer.

That being said, would people object to a PHP-FPM specific group, and
a PHP-FPM developer specific group (which of course would only have
2-3 people on it) instead of using highload? It is basically all about
PHP-FPM but I assume it was used in the past for any discussions
relating to scaling PHP websites. It would probably look cleaner and
more relevant if the mailing lists matched up with the actual project
name. Yes, it means splitting information even more, however if there
was any time to do it it would be now, with the new style instead of
the patch, etc...

Perhaps LinkedIn group(for PHP-FPM) would give exposure of much higher
quality than Facebook.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Michael Shadle <mike503@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > If the website lists stable versions and where to get them from,
> everything
> > else matters only for coders (currently dreamcat4). It's up to their
> religion
> > what they use for devevelopment.
>
> Well ideally I want developers to be able to just join in the fun as
> easy as possible too. So anyone's ideas are fair game there.
>
> Do you have a specific website you think does this particularly well?
>
> > It doesn't matter where the code is as soon as the website points to it
> and
> > says what is beta and what is stable :) It is though a good idea to put
> > releases on a place, where people can find them after some time (meaning
> URLs
> > of already released stuff should not change, else you break freebsd
> ports,
> > gentoo portage and all other source based "package" systems). This does
> not
> > mean that naming conventions and URLs cannot change between releases,
> > important is not to change the URL of something after it has been
> released.
>
> Agreed. For both historical and compatibility I have no objection to
> ensuring that all versions stay online and available.
>
> > This one is currently missing, whislists are something different from
> goals.
> > Moreover there are 2 links for Wishlists on the wiki (one site on the
> wiki
> > itself and one on launchpad).
>
> This is true. I wanted to move the wishlist items into launchpad's
> equivalents which are called "Blueprints" - haven't got there yet
> though. Wanted to flush them out a little bit more before dumping stub
> "feature requests" in.
>
> > So now about goals: I am using php-fpm for a website, but I don't know
> what
> > the goals of the project are, I do know what stays on the wishlists, but
> > that's irrelevant for me if there is nobody with a desire to code it.
> > Therefore goals, for me, are a list of things to expect in some order,
> like:
> > implement feature X, fix feature Y, write docs, fix bugs 1, 2, 3 .......
>
> Well, prioritization and such is hard since there are no resources. I
> can't really say that feature X gets done first, if I can't find a
> coder proficient enough to do X, but perhaps they can do Y... so that
> one may be hard to really nail down.
>
> > The goals of the project should be defined by the people, working on the
> code
> > (currently dreamcat4), and should list what these people would like to
> > implement, so that the users (me and everybody who cares) know what to
> expect
> > in the future releases.
>
> That's where LP helps - they can get classified into milestones.
>
> > Nobody mentioned anything about something that is not working, neither
> that
> > some website sucks :) I hope you realize, that creating yet another place
> for
> > announcements (facebook), means: yet another place to be kept in sync.
> It's
> > kind of obligation, since if you don't keep all of these sites in sync,
> you
> > will confuse potential and current users.
>
> Facebook isn't necessarily another place I will sync anything to. In
> fact, it may be just an idle page. However, people will be able to
> find it on other people's profiles and then with a short writeup and
> the website link discover the project.
>
> Before I knew about PHP-FPM I was wandering around the net looking for
> something. Then I decided I would try making my own blueprints/idea -
> after posting it multiple places someone informed me of PHP-FPM, which
> addresses basically all my needs besides the adaptive process
> management (however it has worked great anyway)
>
> So exposure is key. Finding the right people who use it could lead to
> more contributions of any kind. That's not a bad thing. So if anyone
> has a Facebook account I'd say add it; I might announce something
> major on there after the website and official channels get it, but
> otherwise it's just a placeholder to help grab exposure for the
> project. Nothing really more.
>

My answer is - why not both? :) It's free.

http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2516069 - there ya go.


On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Khazret Sapenov <sapenov@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps LinkedIn group(for PHP-FPM) would give exposure of much higher
> quality than Facebook.

Why not twitter, youtube or porntube ? :D

I'm joking, sorry

2009/11/23 Michael Shadle <mike503@gmail.com>:
> My answer is - why not both? :) It's free.
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2516069 - there ya go.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Khazret Sapenov <sapenov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps LinkedIn group(for PHP-FPM) would give exposure of much higher
>> quality than Facebook.
>

Momchil, et al:

I've thrown together a very quick template to get things started.

Some information off the wiki will be moved to the normal website, so
the wiki can be purely for user additions and edits.

I might change the developer stuff over to something else than
launchpad perhaps. We'll have to see about that. I might discuss with
dreamcat4 since he's been contributing code and patches.

Also need to fill in more information and such and flush things out.

Please give it a good run through. Any navigation ideas? Any issues?
This is where the *constructive* criticism helps. I am asking for it
:)

Thanks all.

На понеделник 23 ноември 2009 11:56:24 Michael Shadle написа:
> Momchil, et al:
>
> I've thrown together a very quick template to get things started.
>
> Some information off the wiki will be moved to the normal website, so
> the wiki can be purely for user additions and edits.
>
> I might change the developer stuff over to something else than
> launchpad perhaps. We'll have to see about that. I might discuss with
> dreamcat4 since he's been contributing code and patches.
>
> Also need to fill in more information and such and flush things out.
>
> Please give it a good run through. Any navigation ideas? Any issues?
> This is where the *constructive* criticism helps. I am asking for it

Now we are talking :) This looks more like a project page with the most
relevant project information listed. I like it.

The only thing that bothers me is the link to the code, it would be better if
under "Latest Stable Release" you put the number, a direct link for download
and a link to the changelog. You can also point out: Old Stable Releases and
current development code can be found under http://launchpad.net/php-fpm. It's
important that people know what is the last stable release (as identification
number), a direct link to it and what has been changed since the previous
release. A direct link to the current dev/snapshot is also a good thing for
testers.

Momchil

Yeah - that's why it says "go to launchpad right now, we're working on
this" or something. I just need to figure out if a) we have the
historical syncing to /downloads/ setup properly, and b) what the
latest stable version actually is.

changelogs and such may not exist. however, if we switched to using
something like redmine or something, or possibly used launchpad more
efficiently, we could link directly to something showing all the
tickets that were fixed in that release.

I'll talk w/ dreamcat about how to best handle that right now.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com> wrote:
> На понеделник 23 ноември 2009 11:56:24 Michael Shadle написа:
>> Momchil, et al:
>>
>> I've thrown together a very quick template to get things started.
>>
>> Some information off the wiki will be moved to the normal website, so
>> the wiki can be purely for user additions and edits.
>>
>> I might change the developer stuff over to something else than
>> launchpad perhaps. We'll have to see about that. I might discuss with
>> dreamcat4 since he's been contributing code and patches.
>>
>> Also need to fill in more information and such and flush things out.
>>
>> Please give it a good run through. Any navigation ideas? Any issues?
>> This is where the *constructive* criticism helps. I am asking for it
>
> Now we are talking :) This looks more like a project page with the most
> relevant project information listed. I like it.
>
> The only thing that bothers me is the link to the code, it would be better if
> under "Latest Stable Release" you put the number, a direct link for download
> and a link to the changelog. You can also point out: Old Stable Releases and
> current development code can be found under http://launchpad.net/php-fpm. It's
> important that people know what is the last stable release (as identification
> number), a direct link to it and what has been changed since the previous
> release. A direct link to the current dev/snapshot is also a good thing for
> testers.
>
> Momchil
>

Hi,

I have not read the whole discussion but I would like to put redmine forward
for the new and improved website. It comes with a bug tracker, repository
browser, wiki, files and forums (everything you are looking for). I have
used it on a personal project and having all the material in one place makes
management easier. If you ever get round to getting something up and running
I would be glad to lend a helping hand.

Also, I do not think Michael should be condemned for being enthusiast. Just
because he created a facebook page it does not mean you all have to sign up,
it is just another means of communication for the PHP-FPM users which can
only be a good thing in the long run?

2009/11/23 Michael Shadle <mike503@gmail.com>

> Yeah - that's why it says "go to launchpad right now, we're working on
> this" or something. I just need to figure out if a) we have the
> historical syncing to /downloads/ setup properly, and b) what the
> latest stable version actually is.
>
> changelogs and such may not exist. however, if we switched to using
> something like redmine or something, or possibly used launchpad more
> efficiently, we could link directly to something showing all the
> tickets that were fixed in that release.
>
> I'll talk w/ dreamcat about how to best handle that right now.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Momchil Ivanov <slogster@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > На понеделник 23 ноември 2009 11:56:24 Michael Shadle написа:
> >> Momchil, et al:
> >>
> >> I've thrown together a very quick template to get things started.
> >>
> >> Some information off the wiki will be moved to the normal website, so
> >> the wiki can be purely for user additions and edits.
> >>
> >> I might change the developer stuff over to something else than
> >> launchpad perhaps. We'll have to see about that. I might discuss with
> >> dreamcat4 since he's been contributing code and patches.
> >>
> >> Also need to fill in more information and such and flush things out.
> >>
> >> Please give it a good run through. Any navigation ideas? Any issues?
> >> This is where the *constructive* criticism helps. I am asking for it
> >
> > Now we are talking :) This looks more like a project page with the most
> > relevant project information listed. I like it.
> >
> > The only thing that bothers me is the link to the code, it would be
> better if
> > under "Latest Stable Release" you put the number, a direct link for
> download
> > and a link to the changelog. You can also point out: Old Stable Releases
> and
> > current development code can be found under http://launchpad.net/php-fpm.
> It's
> > important that people know what is the last stable release (as
> identification
> > number), a direct link to it and what has been changed since the previous
> > release. A direct link to the current dev/snapshot is also a good thing
> for
> > testers.
> >
> > Momchil
> >
>