Hi!

This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a logo for BSD? What is the
meaning of that logo?

I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get deterred by its un-Christian
logo.

Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be an angel, but perhaps
something neutral ;-) ?

Thanks,
Victor.


Я в Моем Мире - http://my.mail.ru/mail/vic_sk/
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On 7/23/10 10:01 PM, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a logo for BSD? What is the
> meaning of that logo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

--Glenn
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On 7/23/10, Victor Skovorodnikov <vic_sk@mail.ru> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a logo
> for BSD? What is the
> meaning of that logo?
>
> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> deterred by its un-Christian
> logo.
>
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be an
> angel, but perhaps
> something neutral ;-) ?


While everyone will have their own interpretation of what the logo is,
it is not a demon. It's a daemon (servers are full of little
daemons).

Personally, I think of the freebsd (only) logo as an avatar, which
means you can make FreeBSD act in any way you want it to. Server,
Router, Fileserver, various daemons, desktop, embedded, clustering..
so many choices...

And please don't generalize. the "BSD logo" is not the same for all
the variants of BSD. OpenBSD is a blowfish, NetBSD is a flag, FreeBSD
is an avatar, plus each offshoot of their own respective systems.
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Disclaimer:

I do not represent the FreeBSD project in any way, shape, or form. I am
certain any such people would be much nicer and more polite about this
than me. I'm sure I would be much nicer and more polite about it if I
became a representative of the FreeBSD project at some point in the
future. Because I am not officially affiliated with the project at all,
though, I feel free to be brutally honest.


On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 06:01:07AM +0400, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> logo for BSD? What is the meaning of that logo?

It's a reference to "daemons", a type of software that runs in the
background "listening" for connections. The term "daemon" has ancient
roots in Greek mythology and has nothing to do with more recent Christian
notions of "demons". In short, mythological "daemons" are basically just
supernatural beings of lower power and stature than the pantheon of Greek
gods, and computer "daemons" are helpful programs.


>
> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> deterred by its un-Christian logo.

Good grief. Are you referring to the cartoon character?

It's a cartoon character. It's not an attempt to lure your children to
join Satan's armies. There's no reason to be "deterred" from giving
FreeBSD a try just because of a friendly cartoon character.

People who value their wool socks should not be deterred from using MS
products because of the stupid moth mascot used by MSN, and those who
dislike arctic climates shouldn't be deterred from using Linux-based
systems because Linux uses a penguin as its mascot. By the same token,
the notion that a red cartoon character with horns should deter a
Christian from using FreeBSD is kind of silly.

I was a member of a military unit known as the Red Devils years ago. I
did not feel like I was being corrupted by Evil. Perhaps you would be
deterred from being my friend because of this, nonetheless. If that is
the case, though, I think I'm better off without you.

While I normally prefer to take an inclusive approach to dealing with
people who run into obstacles in their approach to thinking about OSes,
there are cases where I simply feel the urge to throw my hands in the air
and giving up on someone. Such cases are those where it seems likely
that some kind of closed-minded idolatry (which is exactly what this is:
taking a cartoony mascot as some kind of Manifest Presence of a
supernatural, superhuman Force, Principle, or Being) is going on. Either
you will get over it, or you will not, and it is only a very faint hope
that pointing out the ludicrousness of your objection that compels me to
respond at all.

If you're talking about the weird sex toy thing that has become the
new(er) official FreeBSD logo, however, it seems the FreeBSD project
simply can't please some people. I'm pretty sure that was made so
ambiguous and largely meaningless specifically because of fear of
negative reactions from those who cannot imagine going through life
without being offended -- and it still isn't working, if that's the
reason for your complaint.

It may be "un-Christian", but if so it's "un-Christian" like a penguin or
a moth is "un-Christian", and not like a burning cross would be (and I'd
call that "anti-Christian" instead, anyway).


>
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be
> an angel, but perhaps something neutral ;-) ?

I hope the logo doesn't change because of silly requests from those who
cannot have religious beliefs without also being reasonable human beings.

This whole thing reminds me of a conversation I had in the early '90s
where someone told me that a Nine Inch Nails song called "God's Money"
was blasphemous. Of course, there is no Nine Inch Nails song by that
name, and the song the person was talking about ("Head Like A Hole")
doesn't have the words "God's money" in it at all. The guy had misheard
something and leaped to an erroneous conclusion without bothering to
consider the possibility he was just a reactionary idiot.

Someone's sure to call me intolerant or abrasive as a result of this
email, but frankly, I don't care. Guilty as charged: I am not tolerant
of intolerant, willfully ignorant fundamentalists, regardless of what
fundamentalism infects them.

It's not like you couldn't look up the answer to your question about the
meaning of the cartoon mascot character on the Internet fairly easily
anyway, assuaging your fears of eternal damnation by choosing the wrong
OS. The desire to be outraged appears to be stronger than the desire to
educate oneself.

When this is the way someone starts a "discussion" about wanting to use a
new OS, I tend to believe there is no genuine interest in using the OS in
question.

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

On Jul 23, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Chad Perrin wrote:
> It's a cartoon character. It's not an attempt to lure your children
> to
> join Satan's armies. There's no reason to be "deterred" from giving
> FreeBSD a try just because of a friendly cartoon character.

I'm reminded of when some Christian groups called for a boycott of
Apple because they had an OS project code-named "Darwin." Some people
will just go out of their way to look for reasons to take offense.

I'm reminded that the SATAN network scanner project used to ship a
utility with the source code that would patch it to rename it
"SANTA". I suppose someone could fork a new BSD distribution with an
angel for a logo, to mollify these sorts of people. Call it
BlessedBSD (BleSseD?) or something. ;)

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David Brodbeck said the following on 2010-07-24 09:05:

> Call it BlessedBSD (BleSseD?) or
> something. ;)

BBsd?

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Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
> Hi!
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a logo for BSD? What is the
> meaning of that logo?
>
> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get deterred by its un-Christian
> logo.

Grow up your silly sod!
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On 24/07/2010 08:38:24, Bernt Hansson wrote:
> Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
>> Hi!
>>
>> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
>> logo for BSD? What is the
>> meaning of that logo?
>>
>> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
>> deterred by its un-Christian
>> logo.
>
> Grow up your silly sod!

No, no. I'm afraid the game is up, chaps. Such perspicacious
observation! Such penetrating insight! How could we have dreamed that
anyone would uncover our daemonic plot to make the world a better place
through superior software by simply examining our logo?

My friends, I fear that there is going to be a lot of holy water
sprinkled in data centres over the coming months. There will be much
weeping and wailing and a darkness shall spread over the face of the
net; lightnings and thunders and unwholesome smokes shall assault those
holy warriors attempting to drive out the daemonically possessed (Hint:
turn off the power *before* applying the Holy Water.)

Cheers,

Matthew

Disclaimer: Prophecy not valid where Enlightenment values have largely
replaced the Medieval superstition, nor in those countries with a
predominantly non-Abrahamic religious heritage. Terms and conditions
may apply. The value of your investments may go down as well as up.

--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard
Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
JID: matthew@infracaninophile.co.uk Kent, CT11 9PW

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 09:21:48AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
>
> On 24/07/2010 08:38:24, Bernt Hansson wrote:
> > Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> >> logo for BSD? What is the
> >> meaning of that logo?
> >>
> >> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> >> deterred by its un-Christian
> >> logo.
> >
> > Grow up your silly sod!
>
> No, no. I'm afraid the game is up, chaps. Such perspicacious
> observation! Such penetrating insight! How could we have dreamed that
> anyone would uncover our daemonic plot to make the world a better place
> through superior software by simply examining our logo?
>
> My friends, I fear that there is going to be a lot of holy water
> sprinkled in data centres over the coming months. There will be much
> weeping and wailing and a darkness shall spread over the face of the
> net; lightnings and thunders and unwholesome smokes shall assault those
> holy warriors attempting to drive out the daemonically possessed (Hint:
> turn off the power *before* applying the Holy Water.)

You stick to your holy water, I'll stick to defenestrating virgins,
sacrificing goats and chanting the Lord's prayer backwards whilst
dancing naked in a pentagram.

I find it's the only way to get FreeBSD to work....ok, I admit it, I
just like doing it.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
> Disclaimer: Prophecy not valid where Enlightenment values have largely
> replaced the Medieval superstition, nor in those countries with a
> predominantly non-Abrahamic religious heritage. Terms and conditions
> may apply. The value of your investments may go down as well as up.
>

Regards,

--

Frank

Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html


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On 24 July 2010 11:21, Frank Shute <frank@shute.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 09:21:48AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> >
> > On 24/07/2010 08:38:24, Bernt Hansson wrote:
> > > Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
> > >> Hi!
> > >>
> > >> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> > >> logo for BSD? What is the
> > >> meaning of that logo?
> > >>
> > >> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> > >> deterred by its un-Christian
> > >> logo.
> > >
> > > Grow up your silly sod!
> >
> > No, no. I'm afraid the game is up, chaps. Such perspicacious
> > observation! Such penetrating insight! How could we have dreamed that
> > anyone would uncover our daemonic plot to make the world a better place
> > through superior software by simply examining our logo?
> >
> > My friends, I fear that there is going to be a lot of holy water
> > sprinkled in data centres over the coming months. There will be much
> > weeping and wailing and a darkness shall spread over the face of the
> > net; lightnings and thunders and unwholesome smokes shall assault those
> > holy warriors attempting to drive out the daemonically possessed (Hint:
> > turn off the power *before* applying the Holy Water.)
>
> You stick to your holy water, I'll stick to defenestrating virgins,
> sacrificing goats and chanting the Lord's prayer backwards whilst
> dancing naked in a pentagram.
>
> I find it's the only way to get FreeBSD to work....ok, I admit it, I
> just like doing it.
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> > Disclaimer: Prophecy not valid where Enlightenment values have largely
> > replaced the Medieval superstition, nor in those countries with a
> > predominantly non-Abrahamic religious heritage. Terms and conditions
> > may apply. The value of your investments may go down as well as up.
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> Frank
>
> Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html
>
>
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>


I think its important to point out that was are dealing with a faith and
religion issue here. Therefore all logical reasoning goes out of the window,
and trying to argue with a possible troll becomes futile, and does you a
disservice.
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> >> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> >> deterred by its un-Christian
> >> logo.

It's amazing how exercised people get over a topic like this, like in
that old story:

http://www.milk.com/true-stories/unix_for_the_masses.html

I think it's a pretty dumb logo myself, but a group of people that
offer you free software, and even some help using it -- that doesn't
seem benign to you? Why don't you talk to some of the other
Christians involved in the project, like those that maintain bible
study software in FreeBSD Ports?

....

> The term "daemon" has ancient
>roots in Greek mythology and has nothing to do with more recent Christian
>notions of "demons".

Well, "nothing to do with" is overstating the case a bit. There are
some connections, even beyond the etymological, and not all Greeks
thought alike about them. But we take your point.

....

>I was a member of a military unit known as the Red Devils years ago. I
>did not feel like I was being corrupted by Evil.

Some people would find this a lot more problematic than wearing a
daemon t-shirt. ;) Out of curiosity, Is that the one that got its ass
kicked at Pearl Harbor and Wake Island, or the one that got its ass
kicked at Arnhem? Or just a hardcore bunch of Man U. fans?

....

>You stick to your holy water, I'll stick to defenestrating virgins,

That seems like a waste of a perfectly good virgin.

>sacrificing goats and chanting the Lord's prayer backwards whilst
>dancing naked in a pentagram.
>I find it's the only way to get FreeBSD to work....

I knew I was missing something.

b.
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On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 00:05:14 -0700, David Brodbeck <gull@gull.us> wrote:
> I'm reminded of when some Christian groups called for a boycott of
> Apple because they had an OS project code-named "Darwin." Some people
> will just go out of their way to look for reasons to take offense.

I'm reminded to a specific "Computer Stupidity", and please
forgive me that I quote it here:

Tech Support: "All right...now double-click on the
File Manager icon."
Customer: "That's why I hate this Windows -- because of
the icons -- I'm a Protestant, and I don't
believe in icons."
Tech Support: "Well, that's just an industry term sir.
I don't believe it was meant to --"
Customer: "I don't care about any 'Industry Terms'.
I don't believe in icons."
Tech Support: "Well...why don't you click on the
'little picture' of a file cabinet...is
'little picture' ok?"
Customer: [click]

http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_icons.shtml


Sorry. :-)



--
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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2010/7/23 Victor Skovorodnikov <vic_sk@mail.ru>:
> Hi!
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo.  Why such a logo for BSD?  What is the
> meaning of that logo?
>

Strange in deed, it sounds. At first I really thought it was funny,
but after consulting the infinite wisdom of my wife (actually I read
it to her making fun of it), she immediately said "well if the logo
was a priest I am sure it would make _you_ uncomfortable as well...".
Which, of course, immediately wiped off the smile from my face, and
suddenly the issue at hand was not so funny.

> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get deterred by its un-Christian
> logo.

I am not a religious man myself, but if the logo had any religious
meaning to me I am sure I could better understand Victor's issues.
Seems silly, but if it was the other way around I'm sure _many_ people
here would probably concur in the discomfort of using an OS who's logo
was some sort of religion symbol, say a Christian Cross, Egyptian
Ankh, David Star, Muslim Moon, or a Satanic Encircled Five Point Star.

>
> Have you considered changing it to something else?  Doesn't have to be an angel, but perhaps
> something neutral ;-) ?
>

My conclusion and advice to yo Victor is:

FBSD's logo a cute cartoon character that can indeed be thought of
representing a Daemon and I am sure that there was no bad (satanic)
intention in the usage of the "little red devil". It's just a funny
little character, but again it would make me really uncomfortable if
it was a religious symbol of any kind, even if was a cartoon. Many
would probably argue that a devil is in fact a religious symbol, so
honestly I am left with doubt on the issue. Again, I am not religious
except for the fact I am religious against _fanatical_ religion and/or
any extremism of _any_ sort.

In the end, I personally ___love___ the logo and I would ___never___
like to see it changed!!!

Best,
Alejandro Imass

> Thanks,
> Victor.
>
>
> Я в Моем Мире - http://my.mail.ru/mail/vic_sk/
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Victor,

On 24-7-2010 4:01, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be an angel, but perhaps something neutral ;-) ?
>
Seeing something in it that isn't there at all or perhaps wanting to see
something that isn't there at all in fact is true religion. For me
FreeBSD is true religion: bringing people together and speak about it is
so much better that seeing things in a logo that isn't there at all...

best regrets,
jos chrispijn

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Victor,

On 24-7-2010 4:01, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be an angel, but perhaps something neutral ;-) ?
>
Seeing something in it that isn't there at all or perhaps wanting to see
something that isn't there at all in fact is true religion.
For me FreeBSD is true religion: bringing people together and speak
about it is so much better that seeing things in a logo that isn't there
at all...

best regrets,
jos chrispijn
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Quoth Chad Perrin on Saturday, 24 July 2010:
> Disclaimer:
>
> I do not represent the FreeBSD project in any way, shape, or form. I am
> certain any such people would be much nicer and more polite about this
> than me. I'm sure I would be much nicer and more polite about it if I
> became a representative of the FreeBSD project at some point in the
> future. Because I am not officially affiliated with the project at all,
> though, I feel free to be brutally honest.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 06:01:07AM +0400, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
> >
> > This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> > logo for BSD? What is the meaning of that logo?
>
> It's a reference to "daemons", a type of software that runs in the
> background "listening" for connections. The term "daemon" has ancient
> roots in Greek mythology and has nothing to do with more recent Christian
> notions of "demons". In short, mythological "daemons" are basically just
> supernatural beings of lower power and stature than the pantheon of Greek
> gods, and computer "daemons" are helpful programs.
>
>
> >
> > I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> > deterred by its un-Christian logo.
>
> Good grief. Are you referring to the cartoon character?
>
> It's a cartoon character. It's not an attempt to lure your children to
> join Satan's armies. There's no reason to be "deterred" from giving
> FreeBSD a try just because of a friendly cartoon character.
>
> People who value their wool socks should not be deterred from using MS
> products because of the stupid moth mascot used by MSN, and those who
> dislike arctic climates shouldn't be deterred from using Linux-based
> systems because Linux uses a penguin as its mascot. By the same token,
> the notion that a red cartoon character with horns should deter a
> Christian from using FreeBSD is kind of silly.
>
> I was a member of a military unit known as the Red Devils years ago. I
> did not feel like I was being corrupted by Evil. Perhaps you would be
> deterred from being my friend because of this, nonetheless. If that is
> the case, though, I think I'm better off without you.
>
> While I normally prefer to take an inclusive approach to dealing with
> people who run into obstacles in their approach to thinking about OSes,
> there are cases where I simply feel the urge to throw my hands in the air
> and giving up on someone. Such cases are those where it seems likely
> that some kind of closed-minded idolatry (which is exactly what this is:
> taking a cartoony mascot as some kind of Manifest Presence of a
> supernatural, superhuman Force, Principle, or Being) is going on. Either
> you will get over it, or you will not, and it is only a very faint hope
> that pointing out the ludicrousness of your objection that compels me to
> respond at all.
>
> If you're talking about the weird sex toy thing that has become the
> new(er) official FreeBSD logo, however, it seems the FreeBSD project
> simply can't please some people. I'm pretty sure that was made so
> ambiguous and largely meaningless specifically because of fear of
> negative reactions from those who cannot imagine going through life
> without being offended -- and it still isn't working, if that's the
> reason for your complaint.
>
> It may be "un-Christian", but if so it's "un-Christian" like a penguin or
> a moth is "un-Christian", and not like a burning cross would be (and I'd
> call that "anti-Christian" instead, anyway).
>
>
> >
> > Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be
> > an angel, but perhaps something neutral ;-) ?
>
> I hope the logo doesn't change because of silly requests from those who
> cannot have religious beliefs without also being reasonable human beings.
>
> This whole thing reminds me of a conversation I had in the early '90s
> where someone told me that a Nine Inch Nails song called "God's Money"
> was blasphemous. Of course, there is no Nine Inch Nails song by that
> name, and the song the person was talking about ("Head Like A Hole")
> doesn't have the words "God's money" in it at all. The guy had misheard
> something and leaped to an erroneous conclusion without bothering to
> consider the possibility he was just a reactionary idiot.
>
> Someone's sure to call me intolerant or abrasive as a result of this
> email, but frankly, I don't care. Guilty as charged: I am not tolerant
> of intolerant, willfully ignorant fundamentalists, regardless of what
> fundamentalism infects them.
>
> It's not like you couldn't look up the answer to your question about the
> meaning of the cartoon mascot character on the Internet fairly easily
> anyway, assuaging your fears of eternal damnation by choosing the wrong
> OS. The desire to be outraged appears to be stronger than the desire to
> educate oneself.
>
> When this is the way someone starts a "discussion" about wanting to use a
> new OS, I tend to believe there is no genuine interest in using the OS in
> question.
>
> --
> Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

"abrasive" -- maybe. But this was a most enjoyable read.

I don't suppose our Christian friend opposes hot cross buns or Christmas
trees. Then again, some Christians do.


--
Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips..com

Quoth David Brodbeck on Saturday, 24 July 2010:
> On Jul 23, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Chad Perrin wrote:
> >It's a cartoon character. It's not an attempt to lure your children
> >to
> >join Satan's armies. There's no reason to be "deterred" from giving
> >FreeBSD a try just because of a friendly cartoon character.
>
> I'm reminded of when some Christian groups called for a boycott of
> Apple because they had an OS project code-named "Darwin." Some people
> will just go out of their way to look for reasons to take offense.
>
> I'm reminded that the SATAN network scanner project used to ship a
> utility with the source code that would patch it to rename it
> "SANTA". I suppose someone could fork a new BSD distribution with an
> angel for a logo, to mollify these sorts of people. Call it
> BlessedBSD (BleSseD?) or something. ;)
>
That would probably make a lot of Christian BSD users happy.

Personally, I like the devilish association, however indirect it may be.
FreeBSD is somewhat counter-cultural and anti-authoritarian, after all.

The whole notion of the Christian heaven seems remarkably close to
Microsoft's vision of software: everyone will exist together in this
eternal utopian sameness, and they'll like it.

Give me my daemons, my lake of fire, and some people who aren't too good
to know what they want and don't want-- we'll have a party.

--
Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips..com

2010/7/24 Alejandro Imass <ait@p2ee.org>:
> FBSD's logo a cute cartoon character that can indeed be thought of
> representing a Daemon and I am sure that there was no bad (satanic)
> intention in the usage of the "little red devil". It's just a funny
> little character, but again it would make me really uncomfortable if
> it was a religious symbol of any kind, even if was a cartoon. Many
> would probably argue that a devil is in fact a religious symbol, so
> honestly I am left with doubt on the issue. Again, I am not religious
> except for the fact I am religious against _fanatical_ religion and/or
> any extremism of _any_ sort.
>
> In the end, I personally ___love___ the logo and I would ___never___
> like to see it changed!!!
>

Interesting, because judging from the latest logo overhaul it seems that
the team is moving away from their former image at a fast pace, whether
it be because of the cartoony appearance or religious undertones.

Andres
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Quoth Frank Shute on Saturday, 24 July 2010:
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 09:21:48AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> >
> > On 24/07/2010 08:38:24, Bernt Hansson wrote:
> > > Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
> > >> Hi!
> > >>
> > >> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> > >> logo for BSD? What is the
> > >> meaning of that logo?
> > >>
> > >> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> > >> deterred by its un-Christian
> > >> logo.
> > >
> > > Grow up your silly sod!
> >
> > No, no. I'm afraid the game is up, chaps. Such perspicacious
> > observation! Such penetrating insight! How could we have dreamed that
> > anyone would uncover our daemonic plot to make the world a better place
> > through superior software by simply examining our logo?
> >
> > My friends, I fear that there is going to be a lot of holy water
> > sprinkled in data centres over the coming months. There will be much
> > weeping and wailing and a darkness shall spread over the face of the
> > net; lightnings and thunders and unwholesome smokes shall assault those
> > holy warriors attempting to drive out the daemonically possessed (Hint:
> > turn off the power *before* applying the Holy Water.)
>
> You stick to your holy water, I'll stick to defenestrating virgins,
> sacrificing goats and chanting the Lord's prayer backwards whilst
> dancing naked in a pentagram.
>

s/enestrat/lower/

--
Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips..com

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 06:01:07AM +0400, Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:

> Hi!
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> logo for BSD? What is the
> meaning of that logo?

Do you really mean the logo kind of a round ball with points?
Or do you mean the mascott - the little guy with sneakers and
a trident? Probably the latter.

It has little to do with religion.
It has to do with the UNIX concept of helper programs what hang
around in the OS and take care of tasks. Some of these are sshd
that answers remote ssh requests or lpd that handles printer requests.
There are lots of them. UNIX most basic concept really is that
each utility or program has a specific task and does it when needed
and then goes on to wait for the next one. In general, the OS is
mostly made up of a bunch of these utilities just waiting to go to
work, plus a kind of management program that is the kernel.

In ancient lore there was a bunch friendly characters who hung
around out of sight and waited for a being - human being mostly -
to need help. One of those creatures would slip in and somewhat
mysteriously do little things to help - not necessarily fix the
whole problem, but place something in the human's way that can help
them solve the problem. These merry creatures were called daemons
- pronounced day-mohn. I guess they are sort of like friendly
sprites of elves.

As with any myth, the myth of daemons points to some truth beyond
the mere physical aspect of the stories and images. In this case,
somehow in life, ideas and successes come that we cannot completely
explain by what we knew before. This is playfully represented by
helpful daemons taking care of things behind the scene.

Some people amused themselves by coming up with images that graphically
represented the UNIX concept of an OS. Kirk McKusick, one of the early
and continuing,BSD developers, came up with a sketch of a little creature
that lightly dashed around (thus the sneakers) and used its special tools
(represented by the trident) to make the good things of the OS happen - with
almost all of the work being done behind the scenes. I don't know how the
pointy tail got added. Maybe it just filled out the caricature.

>
> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> deterred by its un-Christian logo.

Again, it is not religious. People who get weighed down by that thought
are usually not well informed about either ancient history or early
Christian imagery.

Actually I have used the FreeBSD mascot image in church, where I am very
active. The uses have been mostly in stuff from the office that had the
Powered by FreeBSD tag. No one even noticed.
>
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be
> an angel, but perhaps
> something neutral ;-) ?

This has come up on this list a hundred times. Far better to educate
those who are poorly informed than to roll over to prejudice and
misinformation.

////jerry

>
> Thanks,
> Victor.
>
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On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 09:21:48AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> On 24/07/2010 08:38:24, Bernt Hansson wrote:
> > Victor Skovorodnikov said the following on 2010-07-24 04:01:
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a
> >> logo for BSD? What is the
> >> meaning of that logo?
> >>
> >> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get
> >> deterred by its un-Christian
> >> logo.
> >
> > Grow up your silly sod!
>
> No, no. I'm afraid the game is up, chaps. Such perspicacious
> observation! Such penetrating insight! How could we have dreamed that
> anyone would uncover our daemonic plot to make the world a better place
> through superior software by simply examining our logo?
>
> My friends, I fear that there is going to be a lot of holy water
> sprinkled in data centres over the coming months. There will be much
> weeping and wailing and a darkness shall spread over the face of the
> net; lightnings and thunders and unwholesome smokes shall assault those
> holy warriors attempting to drive out the daemonically possessed (Hint:
> turn off the power *before* applying the Holy Water.)
>

[[ ... ]]

Suggest that Victor not do much more 'thinking'; his head may
explode ... .


gary


>



--
Gary Kline kline@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix
The 7.83a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php
http://journey.thought.org 99 44/100% Guaranteed Novel

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On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 01:45:47PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 00:05:14 -0700, David Brodbeck <gull@gull.us> wrote:
> > I'm reminded of when some Christian groups called for a boycott of
> > Apple because they had an OS project code-named "Darwin." Some people
> > will just go out of their way to look for reasons to take offense.


I guess ao! I mean, who has anything against Ralph Darwin?
He was the absolute nicest fellow ever born ... {Foxy wife, too.]


>
> I'm reminded to a specific "Computer Stupidity", and please
> forgive me that I quote it here:
>
> Tech Support: "All right...now double-click on the
> File Manager icon."
> Customer: "That's why I hate this Windows -- because of
> the icons -- I'm a Protestant, and I don't
> believe in icons."
> Tech Support: "Well, that's just an industry term sir.
> I don't believe it was meant to --"
> Customer: "I don't care about any 'Industry Terms'.
> I don't believe in icons."
> Tech Support: "Well...why don't you click on the
> 'little picture' of a file cabinet...is
> 'little picture' ok?"
> Customer: [click]
>
> http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_icons.shtml
>
>
> Sorry. :-)
>


I would sigh, but i'm all sighed out right now....


>
>
> --
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
> _______________________________________________
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--
Gary Kline kline@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix
The 7.83a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php
http://journey.thought.org 99 44/100% Guaranteed Novel

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On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 10:46:34AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> Quoth David Brodbeck on Saturday, 24 July 2010:
> > On Jul 23, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Chad Perrin wrote:
> > >It's a cartoon character. It's not an attempt to lure your children
> > >to
> > >join Satan's armies. There's no reason to be "deterred" from giving
> > >FreeBSD a try just because of a friendly cartoon character.
> >
> > I'm reminded of when some Christian groups called for a boycott of
> > Apple because they had an OS project code-named "Darwin." Some people
> > will just go out of their way to look for reasons to take offense.
> >
> > I'm reminded that the SATAN network scanner project used to ship a
> > utility with the source code that would patch it to rename it
> > "SANTA". I suppose someone could fork a new BSD distribution with an
> > angel for a logo, to mollify these sorts of people. Call it
> > BlessedBSD (BleSseD?) or something. ;)
> >
> That would probably make a lot of Christian BSD users happy.
>
> Personally, I like the devilish association, however indirect it may be.
> FreeBSD is somewhat counter-cultural and anti-authoritarian, after all.
>
> The whole notion of the Christian heaven seems remarkably close to
> Microsoft's vision of software: everyone will exist together in this
> eternal utopian sameness, and they'll like it.
>
> Give me my daemons, my lake of fire, and some people who aren't too good
> to know what they want and don't want-- we'll have a party.
>


I'll bring the Leinenkugels Limited.



> --
> Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
> http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips.com



--
Gary Kline kline@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix
The 7.83a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php
http://journey.thought.org 99 44/100% Guaranteed Novel

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On Jul 24, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote:
> I am not a religious man myself, but if the logo had any religious
> meaning to me I am sure I could better understand Victor's issues.
> Seems silly, but if it was the other way around I'm sure _many_ people
> here would probably concur in the discomfort of using an OS who's logo
> was some sort of religion symbol, say a Christian Cross, Egyptian
> Ankh, David Star, Muslim Moon, or a Satanic Encircled Five Point Star.

Well, to me it's about intent.

I doubt the FreeBSD logo was picked with the intent of sticking a
thumb in the eye of anyone religious. I also think it's pretty clear
it wasn't picked by someone who identified with Satanism.

On the other hand, if someone uses a Jesus Fish or a cross as a logo,
they're usually trying to make a political point. *That* would make
me uncomfortable -- not the symbol itself, but the sentiment I knew
was behind it.

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<snip>

To all who replied to this, I just have to say I have not laugh so hard
in ages.

Regards

Graeme

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On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 02:59:25PM -0400, Jerry McAllister wrote:
>
> In ancient lore there was a bunch friendly characters who hung
> around out of sight and waited for a being - human being mostly -
> to need help. One of those creatures would slip in and somewhat
> mysteriously do little things to help - not necessarily fix the
> whole problem, but place something in the human's way that can help
> them solve the problem. These merry creatures were called daemons
> - pronounced day-mohn. I guess they are sort of like friendly
> sprites of elves.

Actually, "daemon" is a Latinization of the Greek "daimon". Daimon is
pronounced something more like "die-mahn", but (being from the Latin)
daemon is prounounced "dee-mohn". Unix tradition holds that "daemon" is
pronounced similarly to the Latin fashion (in practice, roughly like
"dee-muhn" by English speakers).

>
> This has come up on this list a hundred times. Far better to educate
> those who are poorly informed than to roll over to prejudice and
> misinformation.

I agree. Good work.

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 12:05:14AM -0700, David Brodbeck wrote:
>
> I'm reminded that the SATAN network scanner project used to ship a
> utility with the source code that would patch it to rename it
> "SANTA". I suppose someone could fork a new BSD distribution with an
> angel for a logo, to mollify these sorts of people. Call it
> BlessedBSD (BleSseD?) or something. ;)

By the way . . . while I think a BelssedBSD fork is a ridiculous idea,
the name "BlessedBSD" is *brilliant*. Pronouncing it aloud makes the
high-quality pun buried in the name more obvious, for those who didn't
quite catch it on the first read-through.

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

Chip Camden <sterling@camdensoftware.com> wrote:

> Personally, I like the devilish association, however indirect
> it may be. FreeBSD is somewhat counter-cultural and anti-
> authoritarian, after all.

This discussion has drifted badly OT, but I feel compelled to
point out that Christ Himself was very counter-cultural and anti-
authoritarian for His time. That's what got Him crucified, no?
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On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 12:57:14AM -0700, perryh@pluto.rain.com wrote:

> Chip Camden <sterling@camdensoftware.com> wrote:
>
> > Personally, I like the devilish association, however indirect
> > it may be. FreeBSD is somewhat counter-cultural and anti-
> > authoritarian, after all.
>
> This discussion has drifted badly OT, but I feel compelled to
> point out that Christ Himself was very counter-cultural and anti-
> authoritarian for His time. That's what got Him crucified, no?

You got it.

Not that I think FreeBSD using a counter-cultural mascott image
qualifies as a Christ act. But, who knows.

////jerry


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Hi,

On Saturday 24 July 2010 10:01:07 Victor Skovorodnikov wrote:
>
> This may sound strange but I have a question about logo. Why such a logo for BSD? What is the
> meaning of that logo?
>
> I have always been thinking of trying FreeBSD but as a Christian I get deterred by its un-Christian
> logo.
>
> Have you considered changing it to something else? Doesn't have to be an angel, but perhaps
> something neutral ;-) ?

do we none christians ask you to change the offending stuff related to this religion?

Erich
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